Today, I\u2019m talking with Canva CEO and co-founder Melanie Perkins. Canva is a design software company that makes it really easy to do design work, and that means it sits at the intersection of some big conversations right now \u2014 especially when it comes to AI and how it might radically change creative work. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n
Canva got its start more than a decade ago as a different form of disruptive tech for creatives. It\u2019s a web-based platform that makes design tools cheaper and more accessible than, say, Adobe\u2019s Creative Cloud, now one of Canva\u2019s biggest competitors. It\u2019s used by a lot of small businesses, a lot of social media marketers, and now even in settings like sales, HR, and increasingly, professional design. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n
Listen to Decoder<\/em>, a show hosted by The Verge<\/em>\u2019s Nilay Patel about big ideas \u2014 and other problems.\u00a0Subscribe\u00a0here<\/a>!<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n But that means that Canva isn\u2019t really experiencing the same kind of tension around the introduction of AI tools that Adobe or other big software makers are facing because its core audience has always been firmly outside the traditional design world. AI is just another tool to make the lives of Canva users easier. Melanie and I spent a lot of time talking about what that means for Canva\u2019s business and how it intends to use that unique position to break into office and productivity apps with its new Enterprise tier.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Canva\u2019s push into enterprise, which it launched alongside a big redesign in May, is central to how the company plans to keep growing from the roughly 185 million monthly users it has now. Melanie and I talked about how Canva has transitioned over the years from its freemium beginnings to now having a number of subscription plans \u2014 and how she plans to juggle the needs of big Fortune 500 customers with Canva\u2019s role as a more cross-platform, mobile-friendly design tool. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n You\u2019ll also hear Melanie and I talk candidly about how being based out of Sydney, Australia, has affected her approach to company culture. It\u2019s given her the freedom to stay above the ever-changing whims of Silicon Valley and its mercurial VC class, even if it\u2019s still a lot of Silicon Valley money that\u2019s pushed Canva to a $26 billion valuation. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n Oh, and I just had to ask her about that very cringey Hamilton<\/em>-style rap from the Canva Create conference that went viral a couple of months ago. It\u2019s linked in the show notes if you haven\u2019t seen it. But Melanie says the cringe was the point and that it was actually quite successful as a marketing tool for enterprise software. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n Okay, Canva CEO Melanie Perkins. Here we go.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n This transcript has been lightly edited for length and clarity. <\/em><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Melanie Perkins, you\u2019re the co-founder and CEO of Canva. Welcome to Decoder<\/em>.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n I am very excited to talk to you. There\u2019s a lot to talk about. You recently launched a redesign of Canva, which is a big deal. You made a big push into enterprise software, which I want to talk about. In general, I would say the world of design is a bit angsty right now because of AI, and Canva is right in the middle of that, too. You\u2019ve had AI features for quite some time, and I want to talk about how you\u2019re thinking about that and where the audience is. But let\u2019s start at the very beginning. Canva is now 11 years old?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Yeah, we had our 10th year since launch last year.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Tell people what Canva is, why you started it, and how you\u2019ve gotten here.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Canva is an online design platform. Many years ago, I was at university teaching design, and it was really complicated and hard. I thought it was ridiculous that people had to spend so much time learning the very basics and wanted to make it collaborative and online and simple. We spent the first decade doing exactly that, and it has gone pretty well. We\u2019re now used by 185 million people around the globe each month.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n You started the company in Australia. There are a few pretty high-profile startups in Australia, but Canva is pretty global. It\u2019s used everywhere. How have you thought about that aspect of it, and why haven\u2019t you been forced to immigrate to Silicon Valley yet?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n We feel like we really get the best of both worlds. We have built an incredible team here in Australia, but then we have offices around the world, including in the United States, and we have a lot of investors over in Silicon Valley. It feels like we\u2019ve been able to get amazing talent and amazing investors and build a really great team headquartered here in Australia.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n This idea that you were teaching students in graphic design and the tools were too hard to use so you built a tool that made it easy to do graphic design \u2014 that plugs into a pretty long history of software democratizing hard creative tasks. There\u2019s always some angst about that. That\u2019s just the way it goes. Do you feel like you\u2019re participating in that process? <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n This is a lead-up to the questions that will come about AI, but in the beginning, 10 years ago, people said, \u201cThese Canva templates, they\u2019re letting the kids do this work that I usually do,\u201d and that is the story of this company. Is that still what you\u2019re doing \u2014 democratizing design \u2014 or have you moved up the chain?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n With Canva, we really set out to fill a huge gap in the market, and this gap was that people that wanted to create an amazing design and turn that into something awesome didn\u2019t really have any tools unless they went and learned really complicated software that would take a very long time. Canva sits in the middle of the Venn diagram, right between productivity and creativity, and there was nothing on the market that really filled that gap. That\u2019s exactly what we\u2019ve been doing for the last decade and will continue to do for decades to come: to enable people to take their idea and turn that into reality in the end product and have very little friction between those two things.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n When we were starting out, it seemed crazy that people would have to go and design a different product for a presentation and a whiteboard and a social media graphic and printed products and presentations in videos and websites. Every single product that they wanted to create would be something completely different, which seemed ridiculous. What we\u2019ve done with Canva is build one unified platform that enables you to create all of these things with absolute ease so you don\u2019t have to go and learn a new tool each time. I think that was really serving a huge gap in the market then, and it still is today, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s been growing as rapidly as it has.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n On the one hand, that gap, which is democratizing creativity, is very empowering. A lot of people get to open the software; it\u2019s just on the web, so you can just use it. If you\u2019ve made a lot of assets for your small business, you\u2019re off to the races. On the other hand, it\u2019s creativity on rails. You don\u2019t need to know a lot about graphic design. The templates do a lot of the work for you. Some of the new features you\u2019re rolling out in Canva push people into best practices of design. That stuff is really interesting, but you don\u2019t need to know about design. The software knows for you. That\u2019s a tension, I think, that\u2019s really interesting. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I would hazard, though, that creativity isn\u2019t knowing a specific software and it\u2019s not a specific brand of software. Creativity is the ideas that you\u2019re wanting to express, and the tools that we use to express those ideas have changed greatly over the years. One of the first pages in our pitch deck was that [in publishing] there were first metal pages. Then that changed with typewriting and typesetting, and then that changed with desktop computers, and then that changed again with the web. So this transformation that happens every few decades in the publishing and design industry has been going on for a long time and will continue to do that, but I don\u2019t think that it is changing creativity at its essence.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Bob Iger is on our board, the CEO of Disney, who was telling us about how they used to create animations, which were all hand-drawn to start. And then obviously they brought in computers and they could do all sorts of amazing things. I think that transformation is just constant in our industry.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n But that piece of it, which is the core of what Canva enables people to do, is that the software knows a lot about how to make design. The knowledge is embedded in the software, and then you can instruct the software to make what you need. That lets a lot more people create things. But at some point, the professional design community also has to adopt Canva. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Do you think of this as a disruptive product in the classic sense, that you\u2019re cheaper, faster, good enough, and then, over time, you will expand the use cases until you can more directly compete with a professional tool like Photoshop?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Our intention always was to work from the bottom up, but right from the get-go, we knew professional designers had challenges that they were contending with as well. So a professional designer would typically go and send a PDF back and forth with a client, marking up text to be like, \u201cChange that there.\u201d We wanted Canva to become the format that a professional designer could use to collaborate with their clients. So the professional designer could create an amazing template that then the client could be marking up changing the names in it for business cards or whatever it might be. There was always the full story of what we would love to be able to offer for someone that had no design experience and someone that was a professional designer as well. And we\u2019ve really seen that play out.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n When Canva started out, the first people using it were social media marketers, and then it became all marketers. Since then, we\u2019ve really grown and been investing heavily in enabling Canva to be used for sales teams and marketing teams and HR teams, especially with our most recent launch of courses. Professional designers can now, and they are, create those templates for the rest of the organization to use. Rather than their brand guidelines collecting dust, they can actually embed that through the whole organization and have the organization designing on-brand. We really feel like it gives designers superpowers. So yes, to your point, it is changing the paradigm of what people are doing in their day-to-day job, but it also is giving them more power to be able to own the touchpoints throughout their entire organization and to ensure that the whole organization is designing on-brand.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n You said you started with social media managers. That\u2019s how I think of the classic Canva user. Is that still the primary customer base? How are you acquiring new customers? Where\u2019s the growth coming from?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n The growth is coming from all over the world, all over pretty much every industry. We just hosted our event in Los Angeles<\/a>, and it was actually interesting diving into the LA use cases. So we rolled out in the [school] districts there. Now, Canva is used by 70 million teachers and students in the classroom. We have 600,000 nonprofits using it. We\u2019re used by 95 percent of the Fortune 500. From marketing teams to sales teams to HR teams, it\u2019s really covering the full spectrum.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n In fact, our goal is to get to 1 billion monthly active users in the years to come. When we first set that as a goal, it sounded completely ridiculous, but we knew we needed to be used by 1 in 5 people in every country. It\u2019s been pretty exciting to see that number go from one in hundreds to now in the US where we\u2019re used by 1 in 12 people each month. In Australia, we\u2019re used by 1 in 9, and we\u2019re leading the charge in countries like the Philippines and Mexico as well, where we\u2019re 1 in 8. We\u2019re starting to march toward that 1 in 5 number. If you start to look at 1 billion users, we need to be in every single profession and every single industry.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Expanding in countries is very hard. Why is your goal to have 1 in 5 people in every country, which requires you to have a presence in infrastructure in every country, instead of 2 in 5 in a smaller number of countries?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I\u2019ll explain the framework that we use. Our mission is to empower the world to design, and what we do is break that down into what we call our \u201cmission pillars.\u201d Our mission pillars are things that we\u2019ve been investing in for the last decade and will continue to invest in for decades to come, which are: empowering everyone to design anything with every ingredient in every language on every device. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n What we\u2019ve been doing is picking off a goal every single year to take steps in that direction. On the \u201cevery languages\u201d front, we started off in English, then Spanish, then 20 languages, then 100 languages, then hard languages like Arabic, Hebrew, and Urdu. We\u2019ve been really investing in the localized experience across 40 countries. To empower the world to design, we need to be in every country, and we\u2019re growing rapidly in developed and developing markets. So there isn\u2019t a specific type of country that we focus on. We think that design is very universal, and that\u2019s certainly what we\u2019ve been seeing play out.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Localizing all those languages in all those countries, that\u2019s a lot of effort. Do you have a full-time Urdu translator on staff? Is that something you\u2019re outsourcing? How are you working on that?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n We have a huge team of hundreds of people. It\u2019s a very big initiative. The internal strategy now is truly local, so we want to have everything localized. In Japan, you have localized billing, localized templates, localized fonts. It\u2019s a pretty large initiative, but obviously it\u2019s a critical part of both our mission and our two-step plan.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n We\u2019re going to come to the two-step plan. That\u2019s a hint. That\u2019s a tease. There\u2019s a big reveal coming. So that\u2019s the goal: 1 in 5 in every country. How many users do you have now?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n And how many people is Canva?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Wow, that\u2019s huge. And then the valuation right now is $26 billion, which makes you one of the more valuable private companies in the world. You\u2019re talking about a pretty wild corporate structure here with everything localized, even at 4,500 people. How is Canva structured?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n As I was mentioning before, we\u2019re very much mission-driven. What we then do is we have our teams organized around goals, the long-term goals that we want to achieve. I touched on one of them: we have a big goal of being truly local in 40 countries. We\u2019ve got a centralized team that\u2019s working on being truly local, and then we also have parts across the entire company that are also working toward that same goal. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n As you can start to see, as I talk about all these different mission pillars, there\u2019s quite a complicated organizational structure to ensure that we\u2019re able to achieve so many things across our goal of empowering everyone. And we\u2019re picking off all these new industries and professions at any given point in time to design anything and continuously coming out with new design types. A couple of years ago, we launched docs and whiteboards<\/a>. There\u2019s a lot in the works there. And then another goal is to empower everyone to design anything with every ingredient, so we\u2019re continuously making investments around these new ingredients and partnerships with incredible music companies<\/a> and so forth. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n Then we need to have all of our product teams making sure that Canva is available on every device. That was, again, a decade-long investment, where we started off with web and then iPhone and then Android and then tablets. Then we had a huge cross-platform project where we brought the same product across all of our platforms, which was another multiyear effort. What we\u2019re continuously doing is figuring out the structure that can enable us to achieve our goals in the most effective way. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n We\u2019re going through that process right now where we\u2019re looking at all the goals that we want to achieve over this next decade. Our first decade was about empowering every person. This next decade is going to be about also empowering every organization and then ensuring that our entire company is structured around those big company-moving goals for the next decade. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n Walk me through the specifics of that structure. You have a centralized product team that\u2019s going to ship some new features. You might have a team in Japan that\u2019s like, \u201cThis set of enterprise users is the first target market for us.\u201d And then you have a team in the United States that says, \u201cActually, it\u2019s this<\/em> set of enterprise users.\u201d In Japan, it\u2019s the sales teams, and in the United States, it\u2019s the HR teams. How do you reconcile that, or do they both get to develop the product independently?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Our product team is very centralized, and I\u2019ll give you a metaphor that we use internally, which is about having cupcakes and icing. What I mean by that is that we want to have the same cupcake for every platform for every country and then different localized nuances for each of those, so different icing for different countries, professions, and industries. We spend a lot of time making sure that most of our effort is going toward having a really solid cupcake that is able to be expanded and can serve all of these different needs \u2014 and that it\u2019s very consistent.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n I\u2019ll give you an example of being truly local: we want to have different billing methods, different payment methods, and there\u2019s a team that\u2019s focused on enabling all of those things. Or we also have an ecosystem of developers to be able to have local plug-ins for different platforms and to be able to create really cool AI apps and all sorts of things. We also have a huge thriving developer community that is able to cater to local nuances. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n The cupcake is the centralized product team, and then we have different teams that are focused on adapting that for education markets, for enterprises, to ensure that we\u2019re able to cater to all of those different things. Our product team is 2,500 people \u2014 engineers and product designers and researchers. And then we have teams that are focused on the different variants of the icing for the different audiences and professions. So we have local teams that are focused on, say, marketing and sales across Europe and in the United States and Japan.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n That seems very complicated. It seems like you need to manage an awful lot of communications to make that work. It\u2019s also kind of familiar. You have a core platform and then it\u2019s expressed in different ways in different markets to different audiences. A lot of the time, the conflict there is the decision about whether something should be built into the platform, part of the cupcake, or expressed in some weird way as part of the icing. Does that decision land with you? That\u2019s usually the tension. How do you resolve that? <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I think because of the deep platform investment that we\u2019ve made, we\u2019re in a pretty good spot to be able to do that. Obviously there are conflicts because one country would like a specific thing and another country would also like a specific thing. So firstly, we have a centralized map of the countries that we\u2019re investing in, so countries that we\u2019re already doing exceptionally well in, and other countries that we consider seed investments that we\u2019re wanting to invest in and we know will play out over the next five years. We have this centralized philosophy about the way we\u2019re tackling markets and the way we\u2019re investing and harvesting fruit, and then we are able to make those decisions with both the leads of the truly local team and then the leads of the particular icing.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n How much Canva do you use to run Canva? Because when I describe something as a communication problem, you make a communication tool. Are you dogfooding Canva internally all day long to make this work?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Oh, you have no idea how much we use Canva. Or maybe you could guess \u2014 we use Canva for absolutely everything. So yes, I would say we use Canva extremely extensively. It powers all of our operations. It empowers our whole product framework. It empowers our marketing team, our sales team. We use it extremely extensively.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n How often do you file feature requests for your own personal use?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Pretty regularly, I have to say. In fact, we have a program called Customer Zero<\/a>, which means we use our product very deeply even before it\u2019s at the standard that we would have it released to the public. We\u2019re continuously road testing it. The amount of bugs that I file or that our whole team is filing to each other is pretty extensive, but it means that the product is really road tested by 4,500 people before it\u2019s even getting out into alpha or beta hands.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n You mentioned being a two-step company. One of the pieces of the puzzle here is that you first want to build a giant successful business and then you want to tackle social issues with the profits of that business. You and your partner, Cliff Obrecht, who is the COO, have <\/strong>signed Warren Buffett\u2019s Giving Pledge to give your money away<\/strong><\/a>. <\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Is that at all in tension with the fact that you\u2019ve taken a bunch of VC money in the business? You have a valuation, the valuation has gone down. You haven\u2019t done layoffs, but to get to the excess profits funding social initiatives, you need to have the excess profits, and then your investors might want some of that back. How are you managing the two-step company piece of the puzzle against having to grow and attract enterprise users and grow in every market to even get to the profits in the first place?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Well, I think what\u2019s quite wonderful about the two-step plan is that the steps work very well in tandem. So, for those that don\u2019t know, our two-step plan is: step one, build one of the world\u2019s most valuable companies; and step two, do the most good we can. The great thing about building one of the world\u2019s most valuable companies is that it\u2019s obviously very aligned with investors\u2019 interests. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n But then step two, being able to take all of our equity and ensure that it\u2019s being used to have the greatest impact, has been really interesting because it also has meant that people who would like to help contribute to the world in a significant way are really attracted to Canva and what we\u2019re doing. We can take the education program or the nonprofit program and the deep investments that we\u2019re doing there to attract people who want to come to Canva and help achieve the things that we want in the world.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Obviously, the greater we make the company, the more that we have to invest in philanthropy. We really see step one fuel step two and step two fuel step one. We\u2019re just getting started in this domain, but we\u2019re extremely excited about what we can achieve in the years to come. Cliff and I own 30 percent of Canva, so it means that there\u2019s a lot of capital \u2014 if Canva continues to do the things that we expect it to do in the years to come \u2014 to be able to make a significant difference.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n One of the first things that we\u2019ve done other than the things that we\u2019ve been doing through Canva directly is working with GiveDirectly<\/a>, where we give money to people living in extreme poverty. These are people that are living on less than $2.10 a day, which is absolutely atrocious that people are not having their basic human needs met, so not enough to eat and not a basic shelter, not clean water. $550 in their hands to be able to invest and get an education or get a roof over their head is certainly the best money that we\u2019ve ever spent. We\u2019re certainly hoping that we can do a lot more of this in the years to come.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Is the two-step plan a Canva plan or a Canva and then Melanie and Cliff plan? Because you will make a lot of money and then you can use that money however you want, but the company using its money for social initiatives is a little different.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n We took the 1% pledge with Canva<\/a> a number of years ago. That\u2019s 1 percent of people\u2019s time, money, product, and profits. The really great thing about that is that people can spend their time getting hands-on with philanthropy. The second part is we wanted to ensure that the people that are helping to build Canva are also able to take personal pride in the work that their hard work is helping to achieve. So all of our donations are going through the Canva Foundation. Then, as we are able to do these incredible things, it\u2019s a shared effort for the team and shared pride for the team as well.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n It\u2019s notable to me that Canva is in Australia. It feels like the culture of Silicon Valley in particular shaded in this direction for one minute and now it\u2019s gone. We\u2019re back to full rapaciousness in Silicon Valley. That\u2019s fine; the pendulum swings. Do you feel insulated from that? Do you feel like you don\u2019t have to participate in the American culture wars, that you can stay focused on this kind of mission?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n But you have American investors. I mean, a bunch of American VCs are like, \u201cCut it out, just make the money for me,\u201d and you can see that reflected in our businesses for sure.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I feel like what\u2019s trendy yo-yos backward and forward. Even if you look at something like growth and profitability, the pendulum swings backward and forward as to what is good in Silicon Valley.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Yeah, and now we\u2019re focused on unit economics for once.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Exactly. For us, it\u2019s always just building a durable, valuable business and being able to have a positive impact on the world, and I don\u2019t personally care what\u2019s trendy. They\u2019re basic principles that I\u2019m going to spend my lifetime working toward.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n Do you find that, as you manage a company that\u2019s big and getting bigger around the world, those culture differences rise to your level more often? I imagine you have people in the United States. Rather unfortunately, we live in a permanent culture war here in the United States right now. You have people in other countries. You mentioned the Philippines. The cultural differences there are real. Australia has a different culture. Is that something you\u2019re actively trying to manage, like \u201chere\u2019s the culture of the company versus the culture of the places you are in and here\u2019s how much of that might be seeping in\u201d?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n People are attracted to Canva. A lot of people come to Canva for the values that we have and what we\u2019re trying to do, and the two-step plan is a huge attraction for people to join us. That already means that we\u2019re a lot more unified, even from the get-go, because people are coming to work for Canva for many, many reasons. People work at Canva because they\u2019re attracted to the idea of empowering creativity and being more egalitarian. I think those things help insulate us a little from that because there\u2019s already a unified set of beliefs and values.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n One of the challenges for any creative company, especially one that is software as a service that is deployed on the web, is that people will use the tools to make bad things. When a company has really strong values, that is where you find the most tension. I always think about it in terms of Microsoft Word, and Microsoft is not going to tell you what to write in Microsoft Word. And then somewhere over here there\u2019s TikTok, and TikTok is very interested in making sure you don\u2019t make a whole bunch of stuff on TikTok. Where does Canva sit? Because the values of the company are often expressed in the tool, but you can\u2019t necessarily tell people what to make or what not to make.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Because we aren\u2019t a publishing platform, that does insulate us a little from the TikTok side of the fence. At the same time, we\u2019ve invested very heavily in our trust and safety team for all the different reasons that that\u2019s absolutely needed. It\u2019s a little column A, a little column B, as far as taking precautions, and at the same time, it\u2019s not having that same exposure.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n One of the reasons I ask this is Adobe is a big competitor of yours. It recently <\/strong>took a lot of heat for changing its terms of service<\/strong><\/a> to make it clear that it would be doing more trust and safety work in Creative Cloud. That was misinterpreted, and it <\/strong>tried to clear that up<\/strong><\/a>. It <\/strong>didn\u2019t have a lot of goodwill<\/strong><\/a>. It couldn\u2019t trade on the benefit of the doubt there, and it had to just be really loud that what it was trying to talk about was trust and safety work, not training an AI foundation model.<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n Do you have that problem with the Canva customer right now where there\u2019s worry about AI, and so, even if you want to do the trust and safety work, you have to be clear that some automated systems are doing one thing and some automated systems are doing another?<\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n I\u2019m not going to go into specifics about Adobe\u2019s situation, but I think we\u2019ve built an incredible amount of goodwill with our community. Our free product that is used extensively across the world has built up a lot of goodwill. We\u2019ve been providing that service for a decade and will continue to do so. I feel like we already have a lot of goodwill and we\u2019ve always continuously acted in the best interest of our customers. There\u2019s been a whole bunch of things that we do that mean that our customers feel like we have their best interests at heart. We\u2019ve been very lucky both to have invested in that and to be able to continue to have that goodwill that we don\u2019t have quite as an antagonistic relationship with our customers, I\u2019d say.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n